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Off topic:Bi-fuel

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Zastava128

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Post 30 Dec 2018, 21:08

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.



Those pictures are from the spanish version for LPG.
Now take a look at the CNG systems.



As usually the first is for carburator,the second for injection and the third for injection with lambda probe.



I'm trying to recap.
In the english version for LPG with carburator the picture is missing,there is one in the spanish version.
If I'm not wrong the rest is the same.
There are three sorts of switches, one for carburator,one for injections and last one for injection with lamdba probe,closed loop.
There is no scheme or code for the last switch,it's part of closed loop kit.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 12 Jan 2019, 01:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Zastava128

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Post 30 Dec 2018, 23:05

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel




They forget to add the injector emulator in the second system.
The electric parts are different for the brazilian version of the site.
The switches and closed loop brand is different.
As usually there is a switch for carburator,one for injection without lambda and the last one for injection with a lambda probe is part of the closed loop system.


The schemes are always equal that's why I couldn't understand what is the difference.

There are switches manuals.
AEB722A_IS722AN-0.pdf
(202.11 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

AEB725A_IS725AN-1.pdf
(65.82 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

There's a TAP to modify the ignition curve but it can be replaced by the second ignition map of Secu-3.
I'm still try to study those conversion kit for LPG and CNG.
It's interesting to see that there is a IAC,a stepper motor for the closed loop system.
Bye.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 12 Jan 2019, 01:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Zastava128

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Post 31 Dec 2018, 18:06

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
I can't find a whole kit for the conversion...


That's for cars with carburators, I'm not intersting in fuel tanks and refilling valves.
The solenoid valve for petrol is missing in that picture.
Probably they are interesting in CNG kits for carburators more much than LPG kits for the same application.
There is no file about it and it's missing in the english version of the site.
The closed loop version is missing too.
I saw a pressure reducer like that on a russian catalogue if I'm not wrong and the brand was Tomasetto Achille.
I looked for Lovato kits too.

Now I know why there were a Lovato regulator and AEB electric parts on the brazilian Landi Renzo site.




In the first and the second picutre there are two differerent reducers.
In the second kit there is a black box near the solenoid valve for petrol,I don't know why and what it is.
There is no picture for the third kit ans the solenoid valve for petrol is missing because it's for a petrol injection engine.
In the fourth kit they added the elctric parts for the closed loop mode for petrol injction with a lambda probe.
For the CNG kits the reducer is always the same.



There is still that unknow black box in the first picture.
I took the pictures from the catalogue on lovato.ru.
If I'm not wrong there were the CNG kitsonly for carburator cars on the shop,the LPG one was missing.
Bye.
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Zastava128

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Post 31 Dec 2018, 23:21

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
Other pictures,I hope that there are all parts this time.



What is that? Safety relay?


Now there are electric part for injetion,the switch code is for petrol injection




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Zastava128

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Post 31 Dec 2018, 23:35

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

I did'nt know about the next part.Is the description right? I can't see the solenoid valve to close the petrol line anywhere.

I found a scheme with the closed loop parts.







I found a document,I'd like to understand how the parts work but I can't do it at the moment.
componentes-de-gnc.pdf
(745.44 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

I found a very old CNG system by Weber.

Bye.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 13 Jan 2019, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Zastava128

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Post 02 Jan 2019, 02:32

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
I found two veichles running on petrol/CNG as examples.



CNG consumption is in m^3 while the CNG cylinder capacity is in liters.
How many liters for a m^3?
I think the CNG is injected on that veichle.

There is a car too.

I don't know if CNG is also injected on the car.
I saw that.

I couldn't understand what it was.
Then I found that scheme showing that valve on a carburator.

I found a picture showing a stepper motor.

On the previous post the stepper motor was showed on the pressure regulator.
Bye.
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Zastava128

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Post 02 Jan 2019, 22:20

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
I don't know about VE using gas instead of petrol.
I thought that it changes owing to something I read about a conversion.
The conversion was made on a little diesel engine.
It's strange because they could use a petrol engine.
Diesel engines running on CNG aren't a news.

Diesel engines have a bigger VE because there is no throttle and the fuel is injected in the combustion chamber in comparison with petrol ones.
I think that the conversion is more complicated on a diesel engine.
For a truck or a bus there aren't big petrol engines.
The engine I told was used on three wheels. I can't understand everything.
CNG.pdf
(1.05 MiB) Downloaded 10 times

I found a three wheels technical data,it isn't the same,the engine is different but there are versions running on Petro,LPG or CNG.

I can't understand if CNG is mesaured in liters,kgs or cubic meters.
Maybe there's an error somewhere.
CNG cylinders capacity is in liters.

At 15°C a m^3 is 4 liters.


Do you confirm it?
I found other values.

A m^3 is less than 4 liters.

A m^3 is 1,14l petrol.
Bye.
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Zastava128

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Post 03 Jan 2019, 22:52

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
I found an old OMVL catalogue,the description of old regulators and the guide to rebuild the CNG one.
The company and the BRC company are related.

2004 catalogue.pdf
(562.37 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

OMVL_R89_R90_IT_GBbassa.pdf
(826.21 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

809100_01_R89_E_Use_and_Maintenance_Manual.pdf
(1.58 MiB) Downloaded 9 times

There are no instructions for their closed loop system.
OMVL_MILLENNIUM_data.pdf
(43.68 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

There's something particular,one of the closed loop systems uses two stepper motors.

I found a CNG regulator by BRC with a different brand.

It should be a closed loop CNG system composed by OMVL parts.

There's a part between the regulator and the CNG cylinder.

In the previous post there's a picture of an OMLV stepper,the car should be a Saipa-Kia Pride.
That scheme should represent the conversion on the Saipa.
There were another picture in the manual where the pictures are from.

There's something wrong or strange.
If there are petrol injectors the petrol solenoid valve is wrong,it doesn't take for the conversion.
Bye.
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Zastava128

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Post 05 Jan 2019, 05:41

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
The scheme of an LPG system for cars with carburators.

That's the regulator showed in the picture.

There are other regulators.

There is a version for turbo engine.

Generally all systems using a mixer are suitable for both carburators and petrol injectors cars,it takes to add electric parts on petrol injected cars.
There's a regulator for carburators only according the catalogue.

I didn't find a scheme for injection systems without a lambda probe,there is one with the probe.

I found two used regulators but I don't know where they are from and the other parts of the system.


Nothing new,the same as the catalogue. On the first there is no electric part from a closed loop system, on the second there is a black part.
That part is for a closed loop system, it replaces a stepper motor. You can see it in the Blitz kit.

Generally closed loop systems use a stepper motor like in the Just kit.

In the previous scheme a Just box and a stepper are shown, there is always a little error or something different somewhere.
Bye.
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Zastava128

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Post 05 Jan 2019, 22:43

Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Hello.
I took a look at the T.A. Argentina web page.
That company should be property of BRC and T.A. stands for Tomasetto Achille.I hope there is no wrong in what I wrote.
There are schemes for GNC systems using a mixer, open loop for carburators and petrol injections without a lambda probe and closed loop with that probe.
For carburator cars.


Generally a TAP is always recommended for CNG conversion,I hope it's the only missing part of the scheme.
for petrol injection cars with no probe.


Both of them are open loop. This time there is a TAP, of course the solenoid valve for petrol is missing with injection systems,it's repalced by the injectors emulator.

Generally the switches for carburators and petrol injections are different,I don't know why yet,If I'm not wrong we must add a CNG cylinder or cylinders , the mixer and a TAP for both system, a solenoid valve for petrol in case of carbuartors and an injectors emulator in case of petrol injections.
Now the bill of materials should be whole.
As you can see the TA regulator looks like the BRC ME one but the nipples for water.
Now closed loop.


As you can see they added an electronic control unit and a stepper motor.
Generally there is a new switch in the closed loop pack.
At the moment I'm not intersting in electric parts for the conversion owing to a big confusion.
Kit Lazo Cerrado GNC 8 - CNG Close Loop kit.pdf
(143.3 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

This time there is the mixer too,it seems that we add the CNG cylinder or cylinders only to the B.O.M.
The next is the stepper motor control unit, there are many sorts of controls like that,I'll use just asan example to explain my doubt.
XLP.pdf
(97.81 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

The control unit doesn't need a factory petro injection ecu to work.
It needs a TPS signal, a lamda probe signal and a signal from the coil or from somewhere to know the engine rpms.
The stepper motor is the only actuator to make the system closed loop and to adjust the stoich ratio.
Is there somedody running on a closed loop system with a carbuartor?
According you all is it possible or useful?
How fine can the stepper motor work? What would be problems and difficulties?
If the units use a narrow band probe it will have to work both with CNG and LPG being the unit and the rest always the same.
Maybe running on petrol with a carburator is the lambda probe problem.
Bye.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 16 Jan 2019, 23:04, edited 1 time in total.
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