Off topic:Bi-fuel

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Zastava128
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Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Hello.
There were old engines running on LPG. What's the news?
I think they were offered by the factory.
LPG engines.JPG
That's from a workshop manual but I couldn't discover more much.
I heard of a post office van.
R 4 -La Poste.jpg
R 4 -La Poste.jpg (9.99 KiB) Viewed 7894 times
According those car codes the LPG system was offered on cars,vans and pick-ups.
I couldn't find any picture about those versions.
Probabbly the conversion kit was made by Weber,I used to think they made carburetors only.
I found a part made by Weber.
LPG Weber.JPG
Weber.JPG
May you be interesting in alternative fuels,conversion kits,engine tuning?
I know, they're old engines with carburators and conversion kits aren't a news but there are a lot of myths and urban legend.
I'm not expert, I trust in your help.
Were the LPG factory engines the same as the petrol ones?
Can all petrol engines run on LPG or CNG?
What about consumption and power?
In case of conversion kits what can we do to get the best?
I found a Renault workshop manual about LPG, unfortunately it's in french, the draws aren't very clear.
MR-BI-CARB.pdf
(424.26 KiB) Downloaded 424 times
I don't know if it was for R4 or other cars.
Can it be useful?
Comparison between petrol and LPG.JPG
Can it be used to calculate the new VE and engine power?
Thank you all.
Bye.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 02 Jan 2019, 21:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Hello.
I think it can be useful to calculate the power and consumption approximately. I don't know how.
Fuel caloricity.JPG
It's difficult to find the documentation of conversion kits for cars with carburators on makes sites.
There are a lot of infos about injected conversion kits, for older systems you must look for old catalogues on sellers sites.
That's an example of a minimal conversion kit for CNG with a carburator.
Conversion kit for carb..JPG
The scheme is the same for LPG systems.
How to select the best pressure reducer and gas mixer?
At the moment I can found mixer pictures for a comparison but it's more difficult for pressure reducers.
I found a mixer used on Lada Niva.
DIFFUSEUR GPL LADA NIVA OU SUR CARBURATEUR WEBER-1.jpg
2.jpg
It's for LPG,I don't know what is the O.E.M carb for Niva. Is it a Weber? I don't think that the mixer is by Weber.
Probably it's reffered to the carb brand on which it's fitted.
There was another one on sale.
3.jpg
It seems quite common,maybe the conversion kit was added by the french importer.
I didn't find the pictures of all system parts.
Somebody fitted that mixer on a Weber 32DIR 75 100 2M.
It took an adaptor and part of the OEM carb linkage.
Carb swap 1.jpg
Carb swap 2.jpg
Carb swap 3.jpg
Carb swap 4.jpg
Carb swap 5.jpg
Bye.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by STC »

Thank you. I read and it is very interesting info.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Hello.
That's very kind of you. Thank you for the encouragement.
I don't think to have found something useful or interesting at the moment.
Maybe I didn't started from the right point,the beginning or I didn't find the right sites.
I'd prefer to see something with gas injectors and the programmable ecu, I think somebody is doing it and I'll wait for the news.
I tried to start from a minimal conversion kit for old cars with carburators.
I discover that I can't build a virtual minimal system taking parts on web.
Can you belive that I can't select the right switch?
I undestood that there are switches for cars with carburators and cars with petrol injection.
It'll take a lot of time to understand what pressure reducer and mixers are better,perhaps it's impossible for me.
CNG-Vaz Zsiguli.jpg
Vaz.jpg
CNG-Vaz.jpg
That's a CNG system on a Lada.
By what I read on a pressure reducer manual the position of the part should be wrong.
I read some pressure reducer descriptions on seller sites but I can't understand what they mean really.
The sentences are always the same even if the brands and models are different.
I found a manual of a pressure reducer for LPG, they explain how to set it,there's another manual where you can find the same part working on an engine.
That's the reducer and its description.
SE 81 SIC-I.JPG
SE 81 SIC-II.JPG
SE81sic.pdf
(144.76 KiB) Downloaded 260 times
I don't know the right name of the part at the least, what is it? Reducer,regulator,somewhere it's called regulator and vaporizer...
It's impossible to understand and discover the differences between the little one,the big one,the bigger one and the turbo one.
The conversion is made on a little engine used on microcars or as industrial engine.
LPG system.pdf
(1.93 MiB) Downloaded 245 times
Have you ever heard of a petrol/gas switch with a trimmer?
It's told to change the ignition ecu and its wiring harness for the conversion.
Petrol ignition.pdf
(545.24 KiB) Downloaded 217 times
LPG ignition.pdf
(544.03 KiB) Downloaded 225 times
I couldn't find any info or documentation of the 093 switch. I think it was replaced.
Now I'd like to show the rest about that regulator.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

SE 81-I.JPG
Se 81-II.JPG
You've already seen it and you'll see again.
SE Turbo 81-I.JPG
SE Turbo 81-II.JPG
The little one and the big one can't be the same because their capacity, for the rest is it always the same part?
Is it suitable for N/A and turbo and for carburators and injections?
That's what I found reguardind that sort of regulator.
LPG with carburator.JPG
The scheme is missing,the switch for carburetors is the model 094.
094M.JPG
094M-Scheme.JPG
Then the system for a petrol injected car isn't very different, there's an injectors emulataor and the switch is the model 096 Comutax.
LPG with injection.JPG
Comutax-Scheme.JPG
A gas system maker calls "open loop system" the ones for carburators and "closed loop system" the ones for petrol injections with a lamda probe.
The next one is for a system with the lamda probe.
LPG with injection and catalyst electronic monitoring.JPG
I didn't study what a closed loop system is composed of.
There are two black boxes that I don't know,perhaps the progress variation device is the so called TAP to modify the ignition curve.
As you could see I found the infos on a brazilian site,LPG systems are explained on the english version only.
There is a spanish version too that I didn't visit beause I used to think they were all equals but the language.
I was wrong because I looked for switches on the brazilian version,it happened randomly,now I realized that switches aren't the same.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Switches-I.JPG
Switches-II.JPG
That's from the english version.
The next is from the brazilian one.
Carburator-switch.JPG
Injection-switch.JPG
Unfortunately the manuals weren't in english.
The next time I'll try to assemble again a virtual conversion kit.
If I can do it I'll try to understand what black boxes are and how they work in a closed loop system.
Thank you all.
Bye.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Hello.
I have a big confusion... Perhaps there are missing infos or not correct somewhere.
I rember to have read something about LPG,mixers and so on on an australian web page.
I looked for it again because I was interesting in mixers and makers.
I misunderstood,of course,It happens very often. I found OML mixers instead of OMVL and IMPCO.
I collected picture of a french Niva running on LPG.
Orifice de remplissage.jpg
Poly-vanne.jpg
Soupape de sécurité.jpg
Vapodétendeur.jpg
In french GPL stand for gaz de pétrole liquefié.
I don't know the brand of the conversion kit, that mixer is unknow at the moment.
I collected pictures of mixers from some catalogues, I don't trust their accuracy too much.
I knew that there were Solex carburators on Nivas,did they also fit Weber carburators?
They say Weber often.
On a catalogue they use the same code for LPG and CNG mixers.
I don't think that they are equal, somewhere they use the same picture but codes are different.
Lada mixers(BRC).JPG
Mixer 00150002(BRC).JPG
Mixer 00150001(BRC).JPG
Can you realize what carburators are for by looking at their shapes?
There are two mixers only.
In the next catalogue I found three of them for Lada carburators.
Lada mixers(Tartarini).JPG
4821710(Tartarini).JPG
That shape is familiar,I'm sure that is for a Lada carburator.
The next two mixers.
4820550(Tartarini).JPG
4820550(Tartarini).JPG (13.75 KiB) Viewed 7843 times
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

4821712(Tartarini).JPG
There are two sort of mixers by OML too.
Lada LPG mixer(OML 98010).JPG
Lada LPG mixer(OML 21001).JPG
For CNG they added an "M" at their codes.
Lada CNG mixer(OML 98010-M).JPG
Lada CNG mixer (OML 21001-M).JPG
There is the whole catalogue.
OML catalogue.pdf
(2.61 MiB) Downloaded 262 times
I found something made in New Zeland.
Amos Gas -New Zeland.jpg
I couldn't find a web site related to it.
I can't understand if it's a mixer or a cover,a cap only.
Bye.
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Hello.
That's the scheme of an old LPG system on car with a carburator.
LPG system.jpg
Now you can still buy a conversion kit like that.
Generally regulators are suitable for 90-100kw engines at the least, then there are bigger regulators.
The same kit is suitable for many cars, the mixer is the only thing to select according the carburator on the car.
The same parts from a kit like that can be used on a petrol injected car but the LPG/gasoline selectro switch.
My first doubt reguards the switch, I can't understand what the difference is and how they work.
On an injected gasoline car you have to add other parts,an injector emulator, if there is a lambda probe system then you must add other electric part.
They assume that the minimal parts are always the same for all sort of engines using a mixer.
My second doubt reguards the regulator,they show different regulators but the don't explain how they work.
I spotted that sometimes regulators have got an added solenoid valve in comparison with the others.
I found many mixers for Lada, some of them are made of plastic,I couldn't image it.
One of them is called "turbo",is it for supercarghed engines?
Lada LPG mixer.jpg
Mixers.JPG
cherepaha-Смеситель газа для автомобилей ВАЗ с карбюратором типа solex (верхний).png
Is the next the same sort of mixer?
smesitel-gaza-solex-cherepashka-nzga.jpg
I found a mixer as on french Niva os sale in Netherland but nothing about the brand or maker.
Mixer as on french Niva.jpg
They all seem to work the same way but the one with the plastic cap has got less room for air passage.
There are mixers of plastic with one or two feeds shaped the same as the metalic ones.
single feed and two venturis 26mm.jpg
2 feeds.jpg
2 feeds-top.jpg
I don't know if they are ready to fit or not.
Mixer of plastic.JPG
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Re: Off topic:Bi-fuel

Post by Zastava128 »

Plastic.JPG
There are pictures of the mixer on the carburator.
smesitel_lada_skoda_41.jpg
smesitel_lada_skoda_3.jpg
There are other two metalic mixers.
mixer-auto-lpg-lada-niva-.jpg
Unknow mixer.jpg
It looks like the one with the plastic cap.
I couldn't find a mixer for LPG and another for CNG for a comparison.
Generally they use pictures and codes from catalogue, in the case of Lada mixers I couldn't find one for CNG.
Can somebody do the comparison,please?
Bye.
Last edited by Zastava128 on 30 Jan 2019, 22:50, edited 1 time in total.
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